Greetings ‘Zam, long time lurker here. Anyways, I know what some of you are probably thinking just from reading the thread title: “Oh, not more BLM suggestions." In my defense, Black Mage is the only job that hasn’t been updated in five years (no, Retrace doesn't count). This wouldn’t be so much of a problem if BLM wasn’t competing with the more efficient and versatile Scholar job, but that’s not the case. Compounded on top of that problem is the fact that BLMs have no native defenses and an almost too-simple-to-screw-up functionality that's become pretty stale over the years. We can't even use /SCH effectively, a subjob supposedly designed by SE just for mages.

Well, that’s enough babbling about BLM’s flaws. Instead, it’s time to start babbling about suggestions that Square-Enix probably won’t implement. Since the April update that helped out RDM/WHM, I’ve been hoping for a similar adjustment for BLM (as I’m sure many fellow BLMs have as well) - but we’ve had no such luck even 2 updates later. So for the past week, I’ve been working on some balanced ideas for SE to consider for the next update – two new spells and two new Job Abilities that would help promote /SCH, in a nutshell. There’s nothing too overpowering in this list (as far as I can tell anyway), so hopefully out of this whole list a few ideas will get through to SE. Criticism is appreciated; I’d certainly like to see if my ideas fall short.
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Clarification Edit: What these proposed ideas will allow for BLM is the ability to use /SCH more often for the ample MP efficiency bonuses it affords without shrinking the use of /RDM or /NIN. I have slightly edited the suggestions below after gleaning discussion feedback.
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Updated post to reflect new & re-evaluated ideas (as of 11/8/09).

Existing Spell Adjustments [NEW]
-“Warp II”: Reduce MP cost from 150 to 100.
-Lv.50-60 Ancient Magic spells: Increase magic accuracy slightly. Reduce their casting time by 3 seconds (range from 17.75-19 seconds -> 14.75-16 seconds). Reduce MP cost accordingly:

 	|Freeze	| Burst	|Quake	| Burst	| Flood	| Flare	| 
Old:	|  307	|  322	|  337	|  352	|  367	|  382	| 
New:	|  298	|  309	|  320	|  331	|  342	|  353	|

New Spells
-Curse | Lv.34 | MP Cost: 36 | Cast Time: 3 seconds | Recast Time: 50 seconds | Duration: 1:30 seconds maximum | Element: Wind | Skill: Dark Magic |

Description: Lowers an enemy’s movement speed and maximum HP.

-Cursega | Lv.64 | MP Cost: 72 | Cast Time: 3.5 seconds | Recast Time: 1:15 seconds | [NEW]

Description: Lowers the movement speed and maximum HP of all enemies within range.

Notes: Inflicts two status effects: Movement Speed -12% (dominated by Gravity) & Max HP -10%. Pre-Gravitied monsters can be inflicted with Max HP Down. Duration and accuracy are affected by Dark Magic Skill. Max HP Down status will be ineffective on NMs/HNMs/other appropriate targets.

-Covet | Lv. 57 | MP Cost: 40 | Cast Time: 4.5 seconds | Recast Time: 30 seconds | Element: Dark | Skill: Dark Magic | [NEW]

Description: Steals an enemy’s status enhancements.

Notes: Only one effect can be absorbed per cast. Blink and Utsusemi effects cannot be absorbed. Success rate of enhancement transfer is dependent on Dark Magic Skill. The durations of effects absorbed will be the same as they were on the enemy. If absorption fails, effects are still dispelled with as much accuracy as the black magic spell ‘Dispel.’

-Osmose | Lv.56 | MP Cost: 57 | Cast Time: 4 seconds | Recast Time: 1:30 |

Description: Simultaneously steals an enemy's HP and MP. Ineffective against undead.

(Combines the effects of Drain and Aspir. Meant to be used with Wallsurge as well.)


New Job Trait -Elemental Veil | Lv.30 | [NEW]
Augments elemental enfeeble spells casted on targets that have recently been damaged with same-element magic.

Effect: Elemental Magic that deals more than 1 point of damage will grant a short window of time (~5 seconds) in which the original caster’s elemental enfeebles can deal instant damage in addition to their regular functions. The elemental enfeeble must match the element of the previous nuke, however. The damage dealt is equivalent to a percentage of the user’s Elemental Magic Skill, based on the tier of the previous nuke casted, as illustrated below:

Tier	|I	|II	|III	|IV	|AM and AMII  
Percent	|20%	|40%	|60%	|80%	|100%	

New Job Abilities
-Wallsurge | Lv.40 | Delay: 1 minute | Duration: 2 hours |[RE-EVAL'D]
Augments your absorption capabilities and the strength of your damage spikes.

Under the effects of Wallsurge, the following enhancements are bestowed upon the user:
-Self-casted Damage Spikes are given a direct potency boost (+30 damage on each hit).
-Drain/Aspir will absorb from enemies an amount no less than 1/5th of the user’s Dark Magic Skill.
-One HP absorption result is recorded at a time, which allows the next Spikes spell to grant an ‘HP Bubble’ effect.

‘HP Bubble’ notes: The ‘HP Bubble’ effect acts as Max HP Up with the same interruption protection as Stoneskin. The base duration is 5 minutes; each point of Enhancing Skill beyond BLM’s native cap (when casting the Spikes spell) will extend the duration by 2 seconds. The user’s enmity levels will decrease normally while under attack, as if actual HP is being lowered. The user’s Max HP Up effect will be reduced proportionate to the amount of damage taken.

The strength of an HP Bubble is determined by a combination of the following factors:
-Last recorded HP absorption result, up to a limit of 20% of the user’s maximum HP at cast time.
-The following Enhancing Magic Skill formulas:
* Under 100 skill: [skill]/6 = extra HP.
* 100~200 skill: 16.6 + ([skill]-100)/3 = extra HP.
* Over 200 skill: 50 + ([skill]-200) = extra HP.
(Example: Casting any Spikes with 256 Enhancing Skill + a recorded 150 HP Drain:
50 + (256-200) = 106 base HP + 150 drained HP = 256 HP Bubble)

When fully depleted by an enemy within range, the HP Bubble will ‘Burst,’ causing damage proportionate to the amount of HP the Bubble first possessed (before resistance is factored in). The user’s Spikes effect will also wear off. If the Spikes effect has worn before the HP Bubble is depleted, no ‘Burst’ damage will be dealt to the enemy.


-Concentrate | Lv.50 | Delay: 1 minute | Duration: 2 hours [RE-EVAL'D]
Augments your elemental capabilities and the applications of your enfeebling magic.

Under the effects of Concentrate, the following enhancements are bestowed upon the user:
-The user’s Spell Interruption Rate is reduced by 50%.
-Conserve MP is guaranteed to activate on any spell that is resisted by the enemy.
-All ‘Ancient Magic’ spells receive a Conserve MP bonus of +25%.
-One successful enfeebling result is recorded at a time, which grants the effect of ‘Stun’ on the next elemental nuke.

Notes: The enfeebling results that are recorded are based on the successful usage of crowd-controlling spells like Sleep, Curse, or Bind; in other words, the spells must take effect in order to be recorded. One single-target enfeebling result and one Area of Effect enfeebling result can be recorded at a time. The single-target record will grant Stun to single-target elemental nukes, whereas the area of effect record will grant Stun to area of effect elemental nukes. The ‘Stun’ effect does not overwrite, and is not overwritten by, regular Stun effects.

Successfully stunning an enemy’s spellcasting or TP usage with an elemental nuke augmented with Stun will grant a potency bonus of +10% on the nuke. If the nuke is an Ancient Magic spell, the bonus increases to +20%.

Notice: Concentrate and Wallsurge are mutually exclusive abilities; both cannot be active at the same time. If one effect expires, then any previously recorded results will be lost.
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And that's the end of this wall of text. Comments/criticisms are appreciated.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 9:44pm by Murfore

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 9:53pm by Murfore

Edited, Nov 8th 2009 4:55pm by Murfore

Edited, Nov 8th 2009 5:03pm by Murfore

First off Murfore I think your ideas are good, and it looks like you spent a good deal of time thinking about them. I have a few suggestions about your spells and abilities.

Curse:
The way you designed the spell it is weaker then gravity I believe(with only 12% movement down, I think gravity is much higher). This spell would have to be as good as gravity or people wouldn't use it.

Osmose:
The HP drain would be annoying for a lot of BLMs mid-fight because it would screw up sorcerer's ring latents. I would prefer osmose to work identical to Aspir, but have it drain the mobs HP and return it as MP to the BLM.

I like your abilities, I would love to see some kind of "stance" JA's one that enhanced magic attack, and perhaps one that enhanced magic accuracy, or something along that line.

I will comment later on you defensive additions but I have to go to work. I have a few things to say about your current feedback.

First off your "outside point of view" is mostly wrong, I will elaborate.


WRONG. BLM has shiny numbers that we can put up that do 1 thing. Look good in a screenshot. It's 2009, damage efficiency is king.


WRONG. BLM is not wanted on gods and HNMs because their damage sucks balls. BLM is in high demand for endgame, but it is not because they can deal good damage to gods.


This part of what you said is true.


No offense, but your point of view is wrong. No career BLM gives 2 flying @#$%s about exp, we want to be a competent damage dealer on HNMs, we want SCH to stop being able to match our damage output on ANYTHING, and we want to stop being ignored by SE and being the ONLY job that hasn't gotten a buff or addition to our job.

To add to Reynark's comments:

BLM is often wanted for Sleeping adds (We don't require a charge to do so), Stunning big attacks (pretty much the MAIN use of BLM in Sky and most end-game scenarios), and occasionally an opening volley of nukes with a SC for those who still do it.

We do have more uses (Nuking Statues in Dynamis for example), but they are so specific that it means there's a limit to how many you really need before you have to swap in other forms of damage.

We can do big numbers, but we do them slowly, which leaves us out of Zerg scenarios. I mean, a SAM can unleash several thousand points of damage in seconds. For us, it takes several seconds to deal 1-2k damage, IF we don't get resisted and IF we are gear to the teeth with every boost and support we can manage.

I mean, what other job relies on having to swap three pieces of gear per attack to help with accuracy/potency, as well as having another 4-5 pieces you swap for situational usage? What other job needs to leave themselves mostly dead and low on MP to deal their best damage? Literally, if you are a "Good" BLM, you have 2-3 neck pieces, 8 HQ staves, 2-3 body pieces, 2-3 head pieces, 2-3 hands pieces, 1-2 back pieces, anywhere from 2 to 10 waist pieces....

I think you get the point.

BLM has to work harder than any other DD that can toss on a handful of gear, and we still are at the mercy of luck 80% of the time. It's annoying as hell, and the nerfs we've been handed just make it worse.

The OP has some decent ideas but they don't really address the efficiency and damage issues BLMs face.

I've always personally wanted Pikachu's lightning bolt down + B move from Smash Brothers for my BLM [includes knockback effect + obligatory PIKAAAAAA!!!].

Except there are dozens of jobs who have the same problem. If BLM needs an update because of that, then BST, DNC, THF, etc also needs one.



WRONG. It is LS specific. My LS uses BLM more than any other job. BLM does not need to be more popular at endgame, they just need to find the correct LS.



I'm just wondering, what is your opinion about a WAR rivaling SAM in damage? Is it terrible if two different jobs can do similar damage? Because it always sounds like BLM is some kind of exception that should be the SOLE choice for magic damage. In my opinion it is healthy that you actually have someone to fight with for party slots, which is what most of us others have done our whole lives.



A BLM update would be refreshing though, but it certainly has nothing to do with the job being in a bad situation. I can probably think of a handful with worse situation. (SMN, BST, PUP, DNC, THF)

Do we really need one of these threads every time Blm isn't next on the update announcement?

Hell, just for the sake of the thread. Give Blms spellblade like in FF9. They get half enmity on the nuke damage split with the person who they cast the spell on.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 4:00pm by Multidude

BLM could probably benefit from a little party support, but with a recast time of two minutes, how are you going to decide which melees to put in the rotation and which to leave out?

Make Conserve MP shave off a set % of MP cost from every single spell. Instead of Conserve MP +5 giving a 5% chance for it to proc randomly, make it proc 100% of the time and have off 5% of the mp cost. Now mages across the board are better. It's also not overpowered for BLM because they'd have to trade power and accuracy for mp efficiency.

I assume you're proposing that the current Conserve MP trait be dropped from its present +25 value as well?

No, dozens of jobs who are not best choice. But sure, go argue that every job that isn't best needs an update. You'll be talking about it for eternity because 20 jobs can't be best.



I think you should go read a FFXI history book.

SCH was given tier 3s and considered useless at nuking. SE updated this because all BLMs were just pointing fingers and laughing. After getting tier 4s the BLMs instead decided that it actually was good now, and that they should complain instead of laugh.

COR had the same when it was added. People saying "well, it isn't as good as BRD" which caused SE to bump up their efficiency, to actually past BRD power. (BRD is still more popular due to sleeps, haste, elegy and 2 hour though)

Also look at how BRD is support only, but COR is damage+support. Doesn't that remind you of the comparison between BLM damage only and SCH damage+healing?

I'd say BLM is in about as much a need of an update as BRD is. (BRD has only gotten that single target JA and raptor mazurka the last years, BLM has gotten retrace, I think they are fairly equal in "no updates"). The difference between BLM and BRD is that BRD makes others strong, so people like it. BLM is only selfish and don't make others strong, and since others are selfish they don't like BLM but prefer BRD.

Not to mention people hate MP users.





But SE could always do a lolSMN update for BLM. Make it give a mob debuff for 10 seconds each time a an elemental spell is cast.

So something like following:

Stone -> Elegy
Water -> Magic defense down
Wind -> Gravity
Fire -> Attack down
Ice -> Bind
Thunder -> Crit down

Notice that I tried to keep it true to SE designs and made Ice and Thunder as useless as possible for parties. I probably accidentally made Ice good for solo though. 10 seconds duration is to force you to spam low tier nukes to keep it going, and ruin your damage potential. After all, BLM would be too strong if it could nuke AND debuff, right? right? (lol balance discussions)

I can't even follow what argument you are trying to make.


You should rephrase that, after SE boosted SCH and made it a better healer then BLM, a better Nuker, a better enfeeble-er, and a better support job then BLM. Then we decided we should complain.


No, it doesn't at all. BRD can do things COR can't. and COR can do things BRD can't. BRD has haste buffs + sleep + elegy. COR has DD abilities.

BLM vs SCH for example isn't like this. There is nothing BLM does that SCH doesn't do better. If COR could give haste rolls, and debuff the mob as well as BRD then your argument might hold water.


Sounds good! Magic damage will still be pathetic and worthless, but we will be a better nuker at least then the "hybrid" jobs finally. (Ohh it'll need gravity to o tho)


You are just being ridiculous now. BRD isn't weak at its "Speciallty" which is buffing party members. BLM is. And people like bard because it kicks ass at making things die faster, which is what it is suppost to do. BLM kicks ass at.......stunning TP moves.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 8:56am by Reynark

Why are you trying to give BLMs a reputation of being idiots? Don't post stupid things if you don't want to make people think you are all just whining for the sake of whining.



Last I checked there was no rule saying BLM should have best DoT in the game. But who am I kidding, I'm talking to the person who thinks DoT is the only thing that matters today. Sleepga, spike damage, cures, it is all useless.



Come on guys. 30 sec Fafnir. In this game we zerg EVERYTHING. At least there is one positive thing with this, it means SCH is completely useless for nuking because there is nothing to nuke.



My opinion is that it is getting tiresome to always talk to people who are too dumb to understand.

Do you know what you are talking about here? You keep saying you can't compare a pure magic DD to a hybrid, which means the only magic DD SE are allowed to add to the game with tier IV nukes is a complete copy of BLM. Do you honestly think it would be a good move on SE's end to add BLM 2, the same thing, but balanced because it is the same thing.

Obviously if there EVER was to be 2 jobs with tier IV nukes (actually there is 4) then not all of them would be nukes only in design, but hybrids. Which makes your whole argument painfully embarrasing when you time and time again bring up the fact that being a hybrid you are not allowed tier IV nukes.

SCH even needs addendum black on, which is 1 stratagem, which prevents them from flicking too much between cures and nukes, so it isn't even a strong point to say they can cure and nuke.



It sounds more like random trivia, since the point wasn't who was better, it was that they both were alternatives for physical damage, just how SCH and BLM are alternatives for magical damage.

But I guess that is too much to ask for any random alla poster to understand.



Keep thinking that. So far the only thing you've managed to say is that BLM needs an update because it can't zerg mobs in 30 seconds. Sounds pretty stupid to me.



I'll have to take back my statement. You are unexpectedly smart, since only a handful people can tell the game is not binary.

Now you just have to process the information that if BLMs problem is that nuking is worthless, then why are you arguing that SCH nukes too well? It is like comparing wyvern emotes to puppet emotes and claim puppet emotes are better and thus PUP is overpowered.

Make up your mind. Is BLM worthless due to zergs, or is BLM fine but replaceable by SCH? Sitting there arguing both points is just confusing for anyone who tries to understand what you want.



Wooooosh!

Maybe I need to put my bar lower since apparently what I write is too hard to grasp.

BRD is a focused job, COR is a hybrid. Both are party support.
BLM is a focused job, SCH is a hybrid. Both are nukers.

In both cases there is a focused job competing with a hybrid.

COR got a potency update because everyone preferred BRD.
SCH got a potency update because everyone preferred BLM.

Still following?

While both have the same situation, BRD is doing a lot better. Why is that? The answer is that BRD makes others better, while BLM does not. In fact, SCH makes others better, so that has become the preferred job.

Still following?

So my point is that if you strictly compare jobs, BRD and BLM are in the same situation. A new hybrid rival has arrived. But while both are in the same situation and theoretically would both need an update, the fact is that they both don't. (This last bit even you knew, but I'm sure you missed the first parts)

So why is it?

Why is BLM suffering but BRD does not when a hybrid enters the field? Well there are tiny details like no MP, Soul Voice being a good 2 hour, BRD+COR being a good combo for other party members, elegy for tanks and such tiny details.

That said, the reply was also about "few updates" where both BRD and BLM can claim having had few updates over the years.

Summery:

If the argument is "I have a rival" and "I have not gotten much new" then BRD and BLM have the same rights of an update.

Which is what I tried to convey, but apparently wooshed you all. I probably wooshed you all again, because I seem to be a minority of people who can think outside the box.









I'm sorry, but you are on slippery slope there. Calling the SCH update "making SCH better than BLM at healing" is a sign of just writing random thoughts. I'm pretty sure pre-buff SCH was better at healing already.



There are a handful things. Stun, crowd control (sleeps), spike damage.

To be fair, does SCH have anything but MP efficiency to come with in the nuke department? Sure it has a lot of support things, but things that actually are BLM territory is just MP efficiency, isn't it?



BLM isn't weak, since it does the highest damage out of all nuking jobs. And it was not a question about if BRD was weak, it was a question about if they had competition from a hybrid job.

And as you say, people still like BRD even if there is a hybrid option, because BRD makes them better. But when there is an option between BLM and SCH, and SCH is the only one improving others, then BLM is not desirable.

The fact is that BLMs is the one job that hasn't received a single 'update' that they didn't get along with every other job. Raised level caps, merits, expansion gear - you name it, other jobs got it too. Retrace is not an update; it's a convenient teleport spell that saves you 5 minutes from OP warping to the closest maw. BLM update ideas like this keep being posted because enough people (myself included) are unhappy with the state of the job that they want it changed - just like how BSTs and SMNs are unhappy with the way their job functions compared to other jobs. And if you sift through a few pages - no more than 7 - you'll notice that the jobs for which suggestions are posted the most are...surprise, surprise, BLM, SMN, and BST.

Now, I don't think Avatar's Favor or 'Ready' will end the posting of suggestions for their respective jobs (just as previous updates for SMN and BST haven't), but you've got to admit: SE is actually throwing a bone to those last two jobs (a rather obtusely-shaped bone for BSTs, admittedly). Come November, SMN will have received three positive updates since the release of WotG: Elemental Siphon, the BP fixing that was April's update, and Avatar's Favor. BLM's scorecard for positive updates will still be 0, and negative updates will read 2: Mass-BLMing mobs, and the slap in the face that is ToAU Kings. Maybe the SMN and BST updates aren't exactly what their communities have had in mind, but it's certainly better than feeling like SE has forgotten about the job.

I was glad when SE released the SCH job to the game - I plan on leveling it to 75 very soon myself. SCH's first update made them pretty damn strong too, but like others have said, that update pushed SCH a little too far ahead of BLM. An apt comparison would be like updating DNC so far as to be the premier DD choice over all other DDs - "It outdamages me, can cure/provoke/stun, has TP regen, AND has shadows? Why should I ever bother." A bit exaggerated, perhaps, but that's sort of what BLMs are experiencing right now: we're in competition with a class that can do our job better than us if it wants to, or being able to do the job of another class (WHM), or, yet again, being able to Aspirga and Gravityga and Stoneskinga and Regenga and Enspellga...yeah.

So of course, the first obvious idea to help BLM out would be to sub /SCH instead of /RDM for those juicy MP-saving abilities. Nope, can't do it; turns out we die pretty easily in any event worth a damn without some kind of defense. What if we give BLMs some nice party-support spells - a magical DD that can buff party members? Well, turns out that SCH already fills that position. Change Conserve MP and make it meaningfully stronger? Hey, you just found a way to make SCH even more powerful, for itself and every job that can sub it except BLM...

Give BLMs unique, native defenses, similar to what we love subbing RDM for, and we can finally sub Scholar and take advantage of the huge MP savings that are Dark Arts, Parsimony, and Sublimation, without the fear of being defenseless. We'll get back into lower-level EXP parties that don't kill Colibri, and the proposed abilities aren't unbalanced. White Mages and Red Mages can already take advantage of /SCH in most situations; even Summoners can use /SCH for certain events because their damage output is hate-free. I believe this way is probably the most balanced (and likely) way that SE would consider updating BLMs with - not a damage update (if I haven't implied it enough, I don't think we need a damage boost), but a defensive update that lets us use a much more efficient subjob more often.

So please, I would appreciate less arguing for the sake of arguing; I'd rather not see this thread turn into another multi-page flame/argument war, much like the one NotASock posted.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 11:38am by Murfore

Well, I don't think BLM needing native defenses is a very good argument. Except PLD, NIN, SAM, and BST (which is only with jugs and not for AoE's to boot.), none of the DD jobs have native defenses, hence why every other job subs 2 of those 4. DRG, PUP, RNG, SCH, WAR, THF, and COR don't have any natural defenses. DRK's dread spikes will absorb 600 non AoE, non magical damage for one minute and a huge mp cost, but meh. BLU has some but they kind of suck (cocoon is okay, but too short, and is essentially defender. Diamondhide is good but very expensive, etc.) DNC doesn't have any defenses until merits, and even then that hurts their healing ability to get it. I guess BLM could use defenses, but so does everything else.

Plus I don't think you're ever getting curse. I don't think SE knows how to make a move that lets one enfeeble land and another not. For instance, enervation, either both enfeebles land or neither does. So either SE would make both effects entirely useless on everything for fear of you taking off a percentage of tiamat's hp, or not give it to you at all. It'd be easier to argue to just give BLM gravity, since it's black magic anyway.

When and where? You mean removing the 30% exp cut for using the part of our job that makes us more than a gimp WAR? That's a buff? You mean the jug pets that are 80-100k a stack that you have to make yourself because there's 1 stack put up a week? The jug that is still far weaker than a charmed pet? How about SE @#%^ing us over in every new area from zilart to now? Know how you complain about SE adding 6 new HNM's that are magic resistant? Try having nothing charmable in every new zone and every new event from dynamis forward.

The only thing you can possibly call a buff is snarl. An ability that doesn't work with any charmed pet, doesn't work more than 3 steps away from our pet, doesn't work on AoE's. An ability finally added because the entire job of BST was subbable, since there was nothing BST could do that RDM/BST couldn't do better! And considering this new ability will probably lower our damage output if it works the way the english translation describes, I don't see that as a boost either. (and it's only jug pets! Again!)

Let me ask you:

WAR deals damage, SAM deals damage, MNK deals damage. They all compete to do the same thing. Your complaint is that BLM nukes, and SCH nukes, and that they compete for a party slot. "SCH can outheal my BLM" is stupid, since PLD can outheal BLM. Healing is not BLM's job, nor is it what it's invited to do.

You're a petty little bitch, aren't you? I must have shook you to the core, if you're still bitching about something I said 6 months ago, without mentioning you since.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 2:21pm by louispv

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 2:50pm by louispv

First off SCH has higher enfeebling magic and even tho you have to use a charge to have access to sleepga I and II. BLM and SCH I would say each have advantages in Crowd control. And we all know magic damage is worthless, so we shouldn't complain that SCH is better then BLM cause its pointless to nuke things anyway?

The only reason SCH hasn't totally overtaken BLM in endgame is the fact that there arn't that many 75 SCHs. In my shell that is mostly changing, We only have 1 BLM that we use for events, we have 4 - 6 SCHs that do everything we used to use BLMs for.

MP effiency is huge. it doesn't matter that BLM can do 200-300 more dmg per T4 when SCH can cast many more. And BLM should never cast AM2 unless bursting, and who MBs anymore.


3 of my friends have 75 BLM and 75 SCH, and no they are rarely allowed to bring BLM to events.


BRD is a better buffer for DD, and COR mages. But again, melee DD > mage DD so the job with better melee buffs has the upper hand buff wise



Edited, Oct 24th 2009 3:47pm by Reynark

Using stratagems is a pretty big draw back. Using that stratagem means you're not using it for parsimony. (the half mp cost ability that really gives SCH the mp efficiency BLM's complain about. Sure dark arts cuts off 10% of the cost, but the nukes do about that much less damage than a BLM as well, so that's not so big a difference.)
But the stratagems aren't the major problem. The major problem with having a SCH do crowd control is that BLM has 4 sleeps and SCH only has 2. If a BLM sleepga 2's something, and it resists on one, you just sleep 2 it. If a SCH sleepga 2's and one resists, they have to make do with sleep 1, since they just used the sleep 2 timer to cast sleepga.

But what if 2 resist the BLM's sleepga 2? Sleepga 1 to the rescue! But for the SCH? If you have another stratagem waiting, there goes sleepga 1, but also another stratagem bites the dust. What if you don't have a second stratagem? Gravity one, oh crap the other reached me and started hitting me! Sleep 1 please go off, PLEASE! the gravitied one is catching up, better bind it! crap it lasted only 3 seconds, RUN! And now they've all woken up and you have to pray sleep 2 gets them all this time, because you've only gotten one stratagem back. Plus, before you start you need a stratagem to get into addendum black in the first place, without which SCH doesn't even have sleeps.

So the BLM is a hell of a lot safer and has more tools to work with. Plus, if SCH is using it's stratagems on sleepga's, it's not beating the BLM's damage per mp ratio, so the BLM is doing more damage. And it doesn't have stun at all.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the AoE stratagem not only doubles the mp cost and casting time of those spells, it doubles the recast time of those spells as well, which is pretty bad for a crowd controller.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 4:17pm by louispv

Just to be fair, that's not defensive. It makes you counterattack after you get hit, instead of before like MNK's counter.

Also, you kind of just said BLM needs defenses native to their job, because other jobs can get defenses from their sub job. If DNC healing themselves counts, doesn't your RDM sub healing you count? If RNG has defenses because they can sub SAM and ride seigan, can't you? Not arguing against you, just saying your given reasons are a bit off.


No I just think it'd be easier to give /SCH blink and stoneskin, and give BLM gravity than to make new BLM spells that basicly ape those spells. Not only would it help BLM sub SCH, but it would also make it a better sub for BST, SMN, and anyone else who subs it. And more likely to happen as well, since it's just adding new jobs to old spells instead of making entirely new ones hand having to test and balance them. (SE test and balance! HA!)

First, for Overburn: The two biggest nerfs were the elemental resist build up, and to a much higher extent the zombie-fighting nerf. Since BLMs are the glass cannon of the game, we frequently find ourselves out of action. It limits our usefulness dramatically lacking the ability to do much else but debuff and nuke with any efficiency.

ToAU was the biggest "nerf" as they added heavily magic resistant mobs, and mobs that counter magic spells with nasty attacks.

Now, Mellowy...

Gah... Mellowy...

You don't really understand do you?

"No place for SCH in zerg" Um, hello, Stormsurge, {Do you need it?}

People spend millions for a point more strength, and a maxed SCH can drop an added 7 points of it onto 5 other people in a party.

SCH can cure. SCH can buff with Stoneskin/Phalanx. SCH can buff with Protect/Shell IV. SCH can use Raise II. SCH has the most powerful DoT damage spells of any class, period. SCH even has a native refresh ability.

It's not like they don't have other uses. There was no need to give them tier IV nukes. None. Having SCH at 75 as well as BLM, I can tell you it's ridiculous how much more powerful and resilient SCH is. It's RDM if RDM could nuke. If SE gave them Haste, SMNs and RDMs would be in the same boat as BLMs, totally and absolutely outclassed in almost every regard.

As was said, when WHMs felt the pinch of being a second-class healer to everyone else, they got a buff that put them right back as the premiere healer. It's what they do best, healing.

So, where is the love for their BLMs brothers? We should be the KING of nukes. Screw parties, screw extra uses. They need to start there. As for making us more party friendly, this blade idea sounded interesting... As we can generate a ton of hate by damage, if we could split that with, say, the tank, you have given us a new usage. THFs and /THFs would definitely be a bit ticked at this, but they'd still have a usage to continue to pile hate on tanks as well as lowering the evasion of the mob.

Why you are so rabidly against giving BLMs back a spot in endgame (which we are rapidly losing to SCHs), I have no idea.

Did I say they are invited TO NUUUUUKE (thanks for bolding that by the way, I'd have missed it other wise)?

They are preferred because they have more to offer other than NUUUUKES. So, on events where some nuking is needed, but they need other support, why have a BLM that's just taking up space, get that SCH there.

By giving us something more to either lay the smack down on HNMs or provide some other useful service outside of D2's, Retraces and Escapes, it makes the class more desirable. As it stands the order of priority is Zerg > Buff/Debuff > Healing > Stun > Nuke. Therefore most strategies don't even consider BLM anymore.

Wow. Ok I will list a few areas/mobs that SCH is a better nuker then BLM.

Sky/Sea/Znms/Kings/Einjahar/Limbus/Dynamis/etc.

If a monster can be nuked, a dedicated SCH does it better then a BLM of equal gear/skill. My linkshell does all of those events, and guess how many BLM's we use? ......0! I am the only BLM that comes to events as BLM, and that is just because my SCH isn't quite 75 or fully merited yet.

We use SCH nukers because its far more efficent, and if sh*t hits the fan they can stop nuking and backup heal/support.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 5:47pm by Reynark

No my linkshell isnt the only LS that matters. And you can use BLMs if you want. But we have tried using BLMs and SCHs for nuking roles, and found everytime that SCH is superior. You can use all the BLMs you want, but it isn't as practical or efficient as using SCHs.

Do you have BLM at 75? Have you been in a party in lets say dynamis, with several SCHs geared to nuke? Because after the 7463473th time of running out of MP while the 4 other SCHs in your party have 300-400 MP it gets abit old.

The real reason we're looking for a positive adjustment for BLM against SCH is that in any event that nukes are necessary, SCH will do it better than us. Whether it's EXP situations, or Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar, or lowmanning Sky/Sea gods/ZNMs, SCH can not only do BLM's job (and do it damn well), but can perform other tasks when they don't need to 'be a BLM'. If just nuking, or just sleeping, is needed in an event from one more person, and an extra person has both BLM and SCH similarly well-geared/merited, guess which job would outperform the other. Yeah, SCH.

Our 'big gripe' is that out of our few strengths in comparison to SCH (Stun, lolspike damage, and generally more reliable CC), a SCH that can focus on 'being a BLM' will be more efficient at both nuking and general CC. That only leaves Stun to us - and DRKs and anything /DRK can get that anyway.

(It's been said before and I'll repeat it again: SCH used to be almost as good, if not better, at main healing than WHMs. WHMs then got a fantastic update and it's balanced out now. But SCH is still almost as good, if not better, at being a BLM than BLMs are, save for Stunning...)

Edit: wow, Pawke swoops in and steals what I was typing, lol

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 6:12pm by Murfore

While Dark Arts with AF body on certainly puts SCH in a respectable Enfeebling skill range, BLM also has a considerable amount of +skill gear that pretty much invalidates the advantage on most basic mobs where 276 skill is good enough for RDMs.

BLM: 230 + 7 (Enfeebling Torque) + 5 (Altruistic Cape) + 3 (Enfeebling Earring) + 3 (Avocat Pigaches) + 10 (Igqira Lappas) + 10 (Igqira Tiara) + 5 (Oracle's Gloves) + 10 (Wizard's Coat) = 283
SCH: 210/256 + 7 (Enfeebling Torque) + 5 (Altruistic Cape) + 3 (Enfeebling Earring) + 3 (Avocat Pigaches) + 15 (Scholar's Gown) + 7 (Argute Bracers) + 5 (Elite Beret +1) = 255/301

Can add 16 more from merits to both, and BLM could even squeak out 4 more points on HQs, but if we're suddenly talking super resisty HNMs/Sky/whatever stuff, then odds are RDMs may have issues and require things like Elemental Seal or the best of the best of their own +skill/merits to achieve average land rates.

As for Dynamis, BLMs were always our crowd control of choice. It was damn rare that if I went as SCH I wasn't playing WHM for a melee party. The job is still in a relative state of rarity and some BLMs I know have shied away from it simply because they don't want to take on the support angle. I can't say I blame them, either. It can be tricky playing SCH's strengths when you need things within 10' of yourself/target and stuff is moving. Nice as Bindga/Graviga can be, their recast timers wind up exceeding the rate at which a Stratagem refreshes, prompting alternation tactics while keeping mental of Sleepga timers, while considering if it's even worth using them depending on the number of mobs present in the pull. And in city Dynamis, whatever MP advantage SCH has in a perfect world is typically invalidated by the MP statues. Other events/big mobs rarely last long enough for that to be a breaking point.

As is, BLMs haven't been elbowed out of anything except by those who fell for the trap of SCH's hype. One thing SCH lacks compared to BLM in the party environment is the MB potential of maxed/merited AM2s. And while dying is a possibility while taking advantage of this, there are options to keep it from happening. Problem is since it might give up a bit of something elsewhere or disrupt the concept of low-manning, people forsake them under the guise of BLMs being inferior. So, where's the SCH-driven Ouryu v2s, ODS solos, DM zergs, and other pivotal slots in BC fights where the ol' ES+Sleepga2 has become part of the preferred strategy? Are they not happening because SCHs are still rare, or is it because they can't?

Tired job comparison debate aside, while I'm not against BLM getting stuff, it needs to be something that benefits mixed parties far more than solo BLMs or manaburns. Curse is an instant no-no considering ES applications on the start of fights with tough stuff where percentage health reductions can be huge. Plus when you start seeing BLM/RDMs with two forms of Gravity you pretty much open the floodgates for RDMs wanting Gravity II when SCH getting Graviga and lack of other -ga type enfeebles has always been a sore spot. I'm sure I know where those debates will go just based on years of pining for a RDM melee buff that never really came. Anyway, the danger of something favoring mixed parties is it threatens the niche BLMs have dug themselves into as soloists or the 8-Bit stereotype. If it doesn't mean more damage (Pick your angle: MP efficiency, -Enmity, higher/reworked/nerfed-for-other-jobs MAB, etc.), most will be against it.

Maybe you guys should realize and accept this game (and his community) is harsh towards players. I mean, seriously, who cares if the nukes are done with a Sch or a Blm ? Hell, a Bst could do the nukes, I couldn't care less, as long as the nukes are here.
If there is something better out there, then it's what groups will tend to use. You have to accept it. Level this job if you want to be the best, keep going with your own job if you think it's good enough.

I really understand how you feel. I mean, since Aht Urghan release, I saw my Nin being slowly replaced by Pld or dd/nin step by step, and no one gave a damn. I made suggestions like you and got retarded Yonin/Innin upgrades. Don't expect anything better, seriously.
I'm sure you know players who had to level a "similar" job (like another tank class, or another meleeDD class, or another healer class) because it was simply "better". Blms are no exception, and maybe it's just time to get started with Sch because according to you it's so much better it totally destroys the Blm ?

I understand you feel cheated every time a Sch does something, because they play some stupidly overpowered cheated job that even a monkey on heroin could play. I feel like this every time I see a Pld in action or play it. It sucks, but you shouldn't be confident this will change, because no one gives a f*ck as long as they have something functional to work with.

Edited, Oct 25th 2009 2:09am by Oulanbator

I consider it fun to play my job. For years I loved my BLM. I was an important member of a party, a BCNM, a mission or an end-game event. I was valued, and I enjoyed participating.

When ToAU came along, no one wanted my BLM. I distinctly remember standing in Aht Urhgan watching shouts for assault and offering my BLM.

"No Thanks"
"Do you have (X) job instead?"
"Sorry, no thanks"
"Can you main heal as that?"

...

It only got worse when SCH came around. So I caved, and leveled SCH. I enjoy my SCH, it truly is the natural successor to BLM. But that does not mean that I would not love to have my BLM made relevant again.