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What a Deal
Posted: Oct 30th 2009 4:13pm | Edited: Oct 30th 2009 4:14pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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So less than 30,000 jobs created for only 787 Billion dollars. Thats about 26 million tax payer dollars per Job.

Hey who cares though right? It's not about the outcome with Liberals anyway it's always about the intent.

26,000,000

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 4:14pm by ThiefX
----------------------------
" The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money. " Margaret Thatcher.
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Posted: Oct 30th 2009 5:29pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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How about the more important half of the question: if the money hadn't been spent, how many jobs would we be in the hole compared to today?

Hint: the number is larger than 30,000.
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Posted: Oct 30th 2009 5:34pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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"It said that had been a test run of a small subset of data that had been subjected only to three days of reviews, that it had already corrected "virtually all" the mistakes identified by the AP and that the discovery of mistakes "does not provide a statistically significant indication of the quality of the full reporting that will come on Friday.""

Your link, ThiefX.

Try reading it before posting it next time.

Would you actually like an estimate of the total number of jobs created?

Try: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h9rAzeGUDbcj7o6LNY08vydBdK2QD9BLLPCG1

I know it's a hazard, but I'll let you read it.
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Posted: Oct 30th 2009 5:51pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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Reuters wrote:
The Obama White House on Friday said the $787 billion economic stimulus plan approved early this year had saved or created 640,329 jobs so far.
[...]
The majority of jobs backed with stimulus dollars were in education -- 325,000 -- and construction -- 80,000, the White House said.
[...]
Earlier this month, a report based on information from recipients showed just federal contracts awarded under the plan had translated into little more than 30,000 jobs
[...]
Projections of how many workers now draw paychecks backed by the stimulus range from groups such as the Congressional Budget Office and Moody's Economy.com range from 600,000 to 1.53 million.
WSJ wrote:
The White House shot back at its critics, pointing to the economy's 3.5% third-quarter growth rate as evidence of the stimulus's impact. The Council of Economic Advisers believes the Recovery Act contributed between three and four percentage points to growth in the third quarter. Without the stimulus, the economy would have expanded "little, if at all," the White House said.
WSJ Editorial wrote:
It’s easy to ridicule the White House’s estimate that 650,000 jobs have so far been “saved or created” by the $150 billion spent so far from their $787 billion stimulus bill. That’s because while it’s possible to measure jobs created by the stimulus (for example, counting the number of construction workers on an infrastructure project funded by the bill), it’s a lot less clear how you measure jobs saved by it.
[...]
The disparate estimates come down to the multiplier effect. There are jobs directly created, and then there are jobs that are created or saved because the direct beneficiaries are still employed. For example, the stimulus money may have financed a construction workers’ job, but it also may have saved the job of someone at the grocery store where he shops. There’s also the issue of government jobs saved. Many states were planning layoffs that were either canceled or postponed because of stimulus money. But again, those numbers are difficult to quantify.

Most economists agree that multipliers have an effect. Back in February, the Wall Street Journal’s forecasting survey showed economists expected the nation to shed 183,000 jobs on average over the next year — a grim figure, but a markedly better one than the loss of 271,000 jobs they predicted without the stimulus package. That estimate from 46 economists equals about a million jobs saved over 12 months — and that’s the figure Vice President Joe Biden says the stimulus bill will ultimately reach, once the rest of the funds are spent.

Ain't that a corker...
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ThiefX, Posted: Oct 30th 2009 6:51pm, Score: Sub-Default, [expand] LOL it is a corker Joph. It's a corker that you people keep drinking the kool-aid. You posted a op-ed piece to back up your argument with a lot of "the White House" says
Posted: Oct 30th 2009 7:30pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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ThiefX wrote:
LOL it is a corker Joph. It's a corker that you people keep drinking the kool-aid. You posted a op-ed piece to back up your argument with a lot of "the White House" says

Funny thing... that op-ed piece was actually talking about how hard it was for Obama to prove his claims.

I suppose it's easier though when you just say "Haha!" and don't trouble yourself with reading or learning or anything. The earlier number only refered to direct federal contracts. The 600k number refers to state spending of stimulus money, largely on educators and construction. I'm assuming most of the contruction numbers are roadway construction since that can get off the ground quicker. We're still bidding tons of building construction projects but those haven't started yet.
----------------------------
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 10:27am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Quote:
The disparate estimates come down to the multiplier effect. There are jobs directly created, and then there are jobs that are created or saved because the direct beneficiaries are still employed. For example, the stimulus money may have financed a construction workers’ job, but it also may have saved the job of someone at the grocery store where he shops. There’s also the issue of government jobs saved. Many states were planning layoffs that were either canceled or postponed because of stimulus money. But again, those numbers are difficult to quantify.

This sounds a lot like trickle down economics that some people get their shorts in a wad over.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 11:10am | Edited: Oct 31st 2009 11:18am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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tweelisT wrote:
Quote:
The disparate estimates come down to the multiplier effect. There are jobs directly created, and then there are jobs that are created or saved because the direct beneficiaries are still employed. For example, the stimulus money may have financed a construction workers’ job, but it also may have saved the job of someone at the grocery store where he shops. There’s also the issue of government jobs saved. Many states were planning layoffs that were either canceled or postponed because of stimulus money. But again, those numbers are difficult to quantify.

This sounds a lot like trickle down economics that some people get their shorts in a wad over.
It's not trickle down economics specifically the Left "gets their shorts in a wad over", so much as it's tax break trickle down economics.

Edit: Correction. What you're seeing here isn't necessarily trickle down, but the multiplier effect. Separate concept really.

Edited, Oct 31st 2009 12:23pm by Uglysasquatch
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 11:19am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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It's a corker that you people keep drinking the kool-aid.


I keep hearing you pubbies say this, yet even in Mass. I have yet to receive any.

I demand my kool-aid.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 12:39pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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I don't know about Massachusetts, but from what I understand Jonestown, Guyana has some really good Flavor Aid.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 12:46pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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My husband has one of the jobs created by the stimulus, at a local state college. They were able to hire five more tenure track faculty this year because of a boost in funding and increased enrollment. He was one of them.

We are grateful.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 1:06pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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tweelisT wrote:
This sounds a lot like trickle down economics that some people get their shorts in a wad over.

I agree. "Sounds like".
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 1:24pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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So, Thief, does the X in your name stand for your extra chromosome? It'd explain your low intelligence, your daily struggle with the English language, your beta-male angst - everything, really.

Making fun of people with a biological disorder? This must be a new low for me. I think I may have really crossed the line this time. I would like to apologise to everyone everyone for having to read my hateful nonsense, especially those of you with Klinefelter syndrome or a similar condition. I don't know what came over me.
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Posted: Oct 31st 2009 1:33pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Screenshot
.
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Jophiel wrote:
Screenshot
.


Good thing Texas kills those dangerous retarded folk.
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ThiefX, Posted: Oct 31st 2009 4:47pm, Score: Sub-Default, [expand] Are you watching history channel shows again Kave? That's an awfully big word for you there.
Posted: Oct 31st 2009 5:14pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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So Thief, based on your last statement, I assume that if your options were (1) vote for nobody or (2) vote for the least repugnant person running for the office, you'd go with option 1?
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ThiefX wrote:
What a Deal
Screenshot
----------------------------
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And I always get a kick out of people who got tricked into voting for a Unqualified Community Organizer questioning the intellect of someone else.


He's English you @#%^ing idiot. Now, I know you're going to retroactively assert that this was applying to a general set of people who aren't total raving lunatics and care for nothing other than money, and not that you believed that Kavek actually had something to do with the unqualified community organizer who you revile, and that's a totally legitimate rhetorical weapon, but it's not hard to see the quite obviously impossible action of which you are quite obviously accusing him.
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Posting from Atlanta
Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 8:25am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
And I always get a kick out of people who got tricked into voting for a Unqualified Community Organizer questioning the intellect of someone else.


He's English you @#%^ing idiot.


Hahaha, this was my first thought too: "Isn't he in the UK?"

Dunno, looks like when the conservative argument that the stimulus would fail didn't pan out because it (surprise!) worked, now they have to get back to crying about how screwed we are in the future. Kudos to the government for sticking with their plan and getting some solid results.
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ThiefX, Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 9:07am, Score: Sub-Default, [expand] It Worked???? Are you kidding me? Are you that @#%^ing stupid?
Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 9:15am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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One man's WMD is another man's Stimulus Plan.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 9:33am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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ThiefX wrote:
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Dunno, looks like when the conservative argument that the stimulus would fail didn't pan out because it (surprise!) worked, now they have to get back to crying about how screwed we are in the future. Kudos to the government for sticking with their plan and getting some solid results.


It Worked???? Are you kidding me? Are you that @#%^ing stupid?

I know Liberals never look at the outcome of their ignorant ideas but the fact that you could actually post the stimulus worked and believe that is beyond amazing.

You are a politician's wet dream. Too stupid to see reality.


Let's see... economy has improved, recession has been broken, and hundreds of thousands of jobs saved/created. Yeah, I'd say it worked. The extent to which it worked you can debate, but the effects have been positive overall. Again, it looks like you thought it would fail, and now that it isn't, you're struggling to find something about which to complain. Go Thief, go!
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 9:50am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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One man's WMD is another man's Stimulus Plan.


Oh war economy, what can't you do.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:03am | Edited: Nov 2nd 2009 10:07am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Quote:
Let's see... economy has improved, recession has been broken, and hundreds of thousands of jobs saved/created. Yeah, I'd say it worked. The extent to which it worked you can debate, but the effects have been positive overall. Again, it looks like you thought it would fail, and now that it isn't, you're struggling to find something about which to complain. Go Thief,


LOL the Economy has improved? You mean unemployment that is reaching 10%? All of those jobs that have been saved, none of which can be proven and then there is the jobs that have been "created" which even if you use the Democrats numbers of job creation would mean that each job has cost the tax payers of this country more than 150k each and balloned the national debt so much that it will take generations to pay off,

Thats your idea of the stimulus worked and the economy has been saved?

What flavor is that kool-aid?

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 10:05am by ThiefX

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 10:12am by ThiefX
----------------------------
" The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money. " Margaret Thatcher.
Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:10am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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ThiefX wrote:
Quote:
Let's see... economy has improved, recession has been broken, and hundreds of thousands of jobs saved/created. Yeah, I'd say it worked. The extent to which it worked you can debate, but the effects have been positive overall. Again, it looks like you thought it would fail, and now that it isn't, you're struggling to find something about which to complain. Go Thief,


LOL the Economy has improved? You mean unemployment that is reaching 10%? All of those jobs that have been saved, none of which can be proven and then there is the jobs that have been "created" which even if you use the Democrats numbers of job creation would mean that each job has cost the tax payers of this country more than 150k each and balloned the national debt so much that it will take generations to pay off,

Thats your idea of the stimulus worked and the economy has been saved?

What flavor is that kool-aid?


Stop putting words in my mouth; I never used the word "saved." I think we still have a long way to go. I did say "improved"... because it has. You can laugh and jeer and hoot and holler all you want, but all the data is pointing that way.

And I don't drink kool-aid; water is pretty much all I consume. It's healthier :)
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Posting from Gainesville, FL
Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:14am | Edited: Nov 2nd 2009 10:14am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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DoubleXchromosone wrote:
What flavor is that kool-aid?
Grape. I'm a little leery of cherry and/or strawberry. They seem to come with this giant pitcher that breaks down walls.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 11:20am by Uglysasquatch
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publiusvarus, Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:16am, Score: Sub-Default, [expand] Locked,
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Jobs have not been created. Simply saying not as many jobs were lost as expected doesn't mean there was an increase.


So, the jobs that were created to replace a portion of the jobs that were lost are imaginary?
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:22am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
DoubleXchromosone wrote:
What flavor is that kool-aid?
Grape. I'm a little leery of cherry and/or strawberry. They seem to come with this giant pitcher that breaks down walls.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 11:20am by Uglysasquatch


Oh yeah?
----------------------------
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publiusvarus wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
Let's see... economy has improved, recession has been broken, and hundreds of thousands of jobs saved/created.


Jobs have not been created. Simply saying not as many jobs were lost as expected doesn't mean there was an increase.


So you're saying NO jobs have been created? Not a single new job has been created? You really want to say something that idiotic?

Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, I'd say it worked.


Oh and technically we had just begun the recession when Obama took office.


And now it's over! Glad to see the government has done well.
----------------------------
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:29am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Bush is probably disappointed that his election gift to Obama, the recession, didn't even last for a whole year.
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publiusvarus wrote:
Oh and technically we had just begun the recession when Obama took office.
If we're going to go with technically, technically it started under Bush and was realized under Obama.
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Locked,

Quote:
So you're saying NO jobs have been created? Not a single new job has been created? You really want to say something that idiotic?


What i'm saying is creating 30k jobs over here doesn't make up for the 200k lost over there.

See how that works? And supposed economic analysts saying not as many jobs have been lost as they expected doesn't mean more jobs were created.



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Cat,

Quote:
Bush is probably disappointed that his election gift to Obama, the recession, didn't even last for a whole year.


Don't be afraid to throw a Democrat congress in there as well.

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I'm more than aware that if the unemployment rate doesn't improve, dems have a chance at losing osme seats in the house & senate in 2010. However, it should be noted that there's quite a bit of stimulus $ to go through that will help with that.

Fixing the the mess W's economic policy left us in & the recession that came of it was only the first part of it. I'm also not so partisan to admit that W's own stimulus helped with that. Any economist will agree that if it wasn't for the stimulus's, we'd have gotten out of this much worse off. That being said, unemployment will definitely top 10% before that gets turned around.

But, despite the fact that Obama is criticized for not getting anything done, undoing W's messes is on it's way to getting accomplished. Healthcare reform will be passed, more troops have all ready been sent to Afghanistan since Obama's been in office & troop levels in Iraq have been reduced, the recession is over, consumer credit regulations are coming into place, & job creation is next on the "to do list".

In my opinion, it's the most important one. Then there's regulating the financial institutions so this sh*t doesn't happen again, forcing the banks to @#%^ing lend, "don't ask don't tell", Iran, North Korea, & peace in the @#%^ing middle east.

All the while creating more jobs.
----------------------------
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Posting from Boston
Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:32am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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What i'm saying is creating 30k jobs over here doesn't make up for the 200k lost over there.

See how that works? And supposed economic analysts saying not as many jobs have been lost as they expected doesn't mean more jobs were created.


Perhaps you don't know what the term "creating a job" means. It means that, irrelevant of other conditions, as a resultant of your behavior, another person entered the workforce. It doesn't mean society at large has racked up a net positive on it's tally chart.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:45am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Omega,

Quote:
All the while creating more jobs.


It's so sad you're so stupid. Since Obama signed the stimulus bill 2.7 million payroll jobs have been lost. You do the math.
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Timey,

Quote:
Perhaps you don't know what the term "creating a job" means. It means that, irrelevant of other conditions, as a resultant of your behavior, another person entered the workforce. It doesn't mean society at large has racked up a net positive on it's tally chart.


And it took 230k to create one job when you take into account the stimulus money spent on "creating jobs". Do you think if the govn cut you a check for 230k could you find a job or start a new business?



Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 10:58am | Edited: Nov 2nd 2009 11:03am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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And it took 230k to create one job when you take into account the stimulus money spent on "creating jobs"


No, all the stimulus money hasn't been spent. Not even 29% has been spent.

($787 * .366 = 28.8%)

And we're all ready out of the recession. Wait till we start spending it on infrastructure, that's hopefully "green", bet that will create some jobs.

Well, provided we don't put Haliburton or Bectel in charge of said jobs.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 11:03am by Omegavegeta
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"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin


Posting from Boston
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forcing the banks to @#%^ing lend


Im at work so I can't go into great detail about all the things that are wrong in your post but that one line you said just stood out.

Forcing Banks to loan is one of the major reasons we are in this mess to begin with.

Barnie Frank and Maxine Waters and Freddie and Fannie anyone????!!!!????
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Im at work so I can't go into great detail about all the things that are wrong in your post but that one line you said just stood out.

Forcing Banks to loan is one of the major reasons we are in this mess to begin with.

Barnie Frank and Maxine Waters and Freddie and Fannie anyone????!!!!????


Small businesses are struggling because they can't get loans.

Why do you hate small businesses?
----------------------------
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin


Posting from Boston
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Omega,

Quote:
And we're all ready out of the recession. Wait till we start spending it on infrastructure, that's hopefully "green", bet that will create some jobs.


I hope you're not betting what's left of your 401k. You're delusional if you think this economy has hit rock bottom and on the way up.

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publiusvarus wrote:
Omega,

Quote:
And we're all ready out of the recession. Wait till we start spending it on infrastructure, that's hopefully "green", bet that will create some jobs.


I hope you're not betting what's left of your 401k. You're delusional if you think this economy has hit rock bottom and on the way up.



Since when does "recession" = hitting rock bottom?
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 1:08pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Annabella, Goblin in Disguise
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what a wonderful phrase
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Nope, no 6th star either.
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I'm just relieved that we didn't follow the GOP's dumbass suggestion and privatize social security.
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:

Sounds like you need to have some paradigms shattered by a good futanari.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 1:09pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Samira
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Nope, no 6th star either.
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Show of hands if you're surprised that self-styled patriots are disappointed that the country has yet to fail in order to prove them right.

Anyone?

Anyone?

----------------------------
one day anyone died i guess
(and noone stooped to kiss his face)
busy folk buried them side by side
little by little and was by was

Posting from right behind you
Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 5:14pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Anna,

Quote:
I'm just relieved that we didn't follow the GOP's dumbass suggestion and privatize social security.


And here I thought Democrats were for as many choices as possible when it came to things of an economic nature. Guess that only applies when they're lying to the idiots who believe the lie that is a "public option".

Anna you should also look at Galveston TX who opted out of social security.

Quote:
Galveston vs. Social Security. Upon retirement after 30 years, and assuming a 5 percent rate of return - more conservative than Galveston workers have earned - all workers would do better for the same contribution as Social Security:


Workers making $17,000 a year are expected to receive about 50 percent more per month on our alternative plan than on Social Security - $1,036 instead of $683. [See the Figure.]
Workers making $26,000 a year will make almost double Social Security's return - $1,500 instead of $853.
Workers making $51,000 a year will get $3,103 instead of $1,368.
Workers making $75,000 or more will nearly triple Social Security - $4,540 instead of $1,645.

Galveston County's survivorship benefits pay four times a worker's annual salary - a minimum of $75,000 to a maximum $215,000 - versus Social Security, which forces widows to wait until age 60 to qualify for benefits, or provides 75 percent of a worker's salary for school-age children.
In Galveston, if the worker dies before retirement, the survivors receive not only the full survivorship but get generous accidental death benefits, too. Galveston County's disability benefit also pays more: 60 percent of an individual's salary, better than Social Security's.


http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba514/

Here's where you have to put on your thinking cap and come to the realization that social security is a rip off and a horrible plan.





Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 5:37pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
There is no 5th star.
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publiusvarus wrote:


Yeah, they're totally unbiased concerning government-related programs.

About the NCPA wrote:
The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research organization, established in 1983. The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector. Topics include reforms in health care, taxes, Social Security, welfare, criminal justice, education and environmental regulation.
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Kanican's Enmity Testing <-- Every FFXI player should know this information.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2009 6:42pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Jophiel
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Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I'm just relieved that we didn't follow the GOP's dumbass suggestion and privatize social security.

To be fair, even the GOP didn't go with that plan. That was one of Bush's flagship programs and it was soundly rejected across the board. Regardless of how the GOP actually feels about it, the probable voter backlash from privatizing Social Security left it dead in the water from the start.
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I've sat and watched the woodpiles grow through the summer
Now I'm sittin', smelling summer burn through the fall.
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Posted: Nov 3rd 2009 6:58am | Edited: Nov 3rd 2009 6:59am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
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Only procrastination is a strong enough force to motivate me to reply to this nonsense.

Three important reasons Galveston wouldn't work nationally:
1) Social Security is supposed to be a safety net for the poor, not a retirement package.
3) Galveston works because it is a free rider on the SS system.
2) SS adjusts for inflation. Initially the recipients in Galveston receive more, but SS starts paying more per month somewhere between 4 and 12 years, depending on the rate of inflation.

An opposing "policy organization"
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1974

GAO report
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:YwrGOvB2bSEJ:www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt%3FGAO/HEHS-99-31+Galveston+County:+A+Model+for+Social+Security+Reform&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjsSAjrHU_uroMDfG3Rnmx9ckMjGP_vr30RmDjLFHmtQfMBlmX3ZFMasBRroQlK-DJwK9jTWBIGM5WmWG5wWfnbtbxrZb53-gsg4_Lk31PQlYfSc37XbHiotz6SSyLB_BfXupV2&sig=AFQjCNExJyiklPHQpLaYMrE5FDzJHBt6cA

(I have no idea if that second link is going to work.)

Guess you must have forgotten to put on your thinking cap.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2009 6:59am by imbtrthnur
publiusvarus, Posted: Nov 3rd 2009 12:37pm, Score: Sub-Default, [expand] imbt,
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